OH-vur-BOH

[Graps]

The knights of the round table were sitting around discussing how heavy a bow a man should shoot .

Arthur said that it should be at least 80#


Lancelot said no less than 100#

This went on for a while and the they asked Percy what he thought ; he said " I find anything over 20# blows up my rubber tips . "

[Captainkirk]

Well, Jason, I was gettin' there eventually...
Surgical-sharp broadheads and arrow placement as well as heavier arrows and high FOC arrows definitely play an enormous part in the kill and deserve their own separate discussion thread. In fact, feel free to start one here if you've a mind to...but I'm not done beatin' this bow weight thing to death just yet, for the sake of any newcomers to trad that are considering a bow purchase, so bear with me if you will.

As Jason pointed out so well, the actual draw weight of the bow is only one of the factors necessary to steer the arrow where we want it. And in the end, draw weight is not the critical factor in determining if we sup on venison or mac & cheese. However, it seems that every male factory-equipped with the standard testicle package simply can't bring himself to admit that a 60# bow is too much for him. He'd rather miss every shot and trash his moving parts than own up to that.
Women, on the other hand...no such issues. If something is too hard, too heavy, or interferes with their shooting form, they just go on and say so. And many times go on to embarrass Bubba almost to the point of tears (notice I said "almost"...if Bubba can't accept shooting a sissy bow he sure as hell ain't gonna cry) I'm read testimony by many shooting and archery coaches that this is one of the reasons they like to teach women. One told me; "Women listen. They take your advice and do what you tell them. Men fight you tooth and nail because deep down inside they think they know more than you."
People come in all different shapes and sizes. Some are able to draw and hold a 60-70 pound bow without much trouble. Other guys with slighter builds, a 40 pound bow might be a struggle until they've strengthened their shooting muscles and the little stabilizer muscles in their back that allow you to hold full-draw, that's right; the muscles that never really developed shooting that 70# compound all these years because you were really only holding 18 pounds. In the end, it all depends on your personal size and shape, fitness level, and shooting history. I'm playing this mostly towards the 'new guy' just getting into the sport and shopping for his first bow.

If you can't draw, hold and release maintaining good form throughout the entire shot sequence, the bow is too heavy for you and you are overbowed!

So...what is "good shot sequence"?
Well, fortunately we are blessed in this day and age of techno-marvels with YouTube and the like. There are many excellent videos on form you could watch and learn more in a couple hours than many archers used to learn in years, or even decades.
Another thing; many times the new archer bases his worldview by focusing on others rather than himself. Example? Well, Howard Hill, for one. Many read about Howard's legendary shooting skills using Hill-style bows of incredible poundage, most above 70 and a few African safari exploits using 100 pounds or better. I've viewed some of these on YouTube as well. So, they say, if Howard can shoot 70#, so can I. A couple of factoids here;
1) You're NOT Howard Hill. Howard, in addition to being a natural-born shot, was a zealot for practicing. He was also in incredible shape, mainly because....he was a professional archer! Most bow hunters are not. They are doctors, lawyers, welders, mechanics, and business owners. But not professional archers.
2) Howard, Fred Bear, Byron Ferguson and the like probably practiced nearly every single day of their lives, and for hours. Danny Deerslayer only pulls out the bow a couple weeks before season to flake off the rust. Big difference!
So, now that we've decided who you're not, let's figure out who you ARE.....

[Kybownut]

For the sake of the topic what is a heavy arrow? In Jason's example of a 45 #longbow and a 70# longbow let's use a 700 grain arrow. From the 70# bow you are shooting the standard 10 grain per pound. From the 45# longbow you are shooting 15.5 grain per pound. If both bows are 100% effecient how much difference in penetration are you going to see if they were both shot from let's say a shooting machine.
Not disagreeing with the heavy arrow theory at all but I think what shoots it plays a large part as well. Good post everyone!

[Shadowhntr]

For the sake of the topic what is a heavy arrow? In Jason's example of a 45 #longbow and a 70# longbow let's use a 700 grain arrow. From the 70# bow you are shooting the standard 10 grain per pound. From the 45# longbow you are shooting 15.5 grain per pound. If both bows are 100% effecient how much difference in penetration are you going to see if they were both shot from let's say a shooting machine.
Not disagreeing with the heavy arrow theory at all but I think what shoots it plays a large part as well. Good post everyone!

I think it does make a difference with a 700 gr, comparing the 45lb bow with a 70lb bow. Its just not as much difference as most people think it is. 25 lbs of extra weight if the same arm and spear is used, would make a difference, but not much. The lesser strength shove or toss, would still get plenty of penetration... however if a person wanted equal penatration using less strength from muscle being applied..aka a more weak arm, it can match the stronger arms penetration, by adding a little extra weight to the spear. Then they can be on equal ground. So in one case more effort is exerted by the arm shoving harder, in the other case, the weaker arm shoving a bit heavier spear with the same weaker muscles...yet both penetrate equally. Place the heavy spear in the stronger arm, it then out performs the weaker arm again. But like kirk stated, there is a tendency of cost that goes with a heavier drawing bow. In your example, the gain of gpp is 5.5 grains. Any idea just how minute of a difference 5.5 grains is? Grains are a tiny measurement of weight. Anyone that reloads cartridges, knows that it takes just a very few kernals of powder to weight 5.5 grains. It affects my arrow flight in such a small way in comparing 10 gpp, its almost unnoticeable. So much so that i cannot shoot good enough to tell the difference. Yet it gives my light bow equalization for penatration with a heavier bow using a bit lighter arrow...and i can do so without the physical effects caused by shooting a heavier bow.

[Captainkirk]

Thanks, Jason. As a reloader, I agree with your points completely...10 grains is nothing in the larger spectrum of things. To further illustrate your point, I just happen to have a scale here at work that can measure grains. How much does a water bottle cap weigh? Nothing. You can barely detect any weight at all, right? So, let's see how much "nothing" weighs.....



Geez...how 'bout that, fellers? Exactly 10 grains is what "nothing" weighs.
Like Jason said, 10gr either way isn't gonna make a difference you or I can notice. And even 10 gpi on a 30" arrow is only going to make a 300gr difference.

I also found Jason's point about penetration very telling as well. Why would an arrow launched from a 70# compound penetrate less than one from a 45# recurve? There are a number of good, relevant answers, but the two at the top of the list are:
1) broadhead style, shape and sharpness, and;
2) shot placement.
Think about it; a surgically sharp broadhead placed precisely where it will cause the greatest blood loss (and therefore the resulting asphyxiation from hypoxia, or oxygen loss) is going to result in the fastest and most effective kill. In layman's terms, that translates to being able to 'thread the needle' with your archery tackle. And being able to thread the needle becomes far more important now than hydro shock or trauma as with a heavy rifle bullet. We are talking two different animals here. So now the importance shifts from having a marginally-controllable heavy bow capable of transmitting high kinetic energy to a projectile, to having a bow that the archer can dominate that will deliver a razor-sharp cutting edge right where it can do the most damage.

[Kybownut]

In the senario above I'm assuming the same arrow with the same point or broadhead shot from both bow being shot into the same median. I think Kirk should do a test using one of his arrows for his sage shot from both the sage and the tamberlane at 20 yards and give us a full report !cm

[Captainkirk]

In the senario above I'm assuming the same arrow with the same point or broadhead shot from both bow being shot into the same median. I think Kirk should do a test using one of his arrows for his sage shot from both the sage and the tamberlane at 20 yards and give us a full report !cm

The problem is, Johnny, that the Tamerlane is shooting carbons with 100gr field points that are ultra-light...somewhere in the area of 5.5gpi IIRC....as opposed to the Sage's much heavier cedar arrows (7.5-ish gpi?) with 125gr FP's.
To do an accurate comparison, both bows would have to shoot a comparably weighted (compensated) arrow and they should also be chrono'd as well as having a penetration test. I will look into this and see what I can figure out over the next couple of weeks?
I already know the carbons off the Tamerlane don't penetrate the foam target at Bass Pro near as much as the cedars off my Grizzly or K-mag, that much for sure. But you're right; some sort of test is in the works!
But again; how comparable is a penetration test on a foam target butt compared to a live animal (tissue) with a razor sharp broadhead?

[Shadowhntr]

I think those sort of test are all over you tube. What many people dont realize, is nothing we have available causes the same reactions as animals in the flesh and bone in dealing with an arrow strike. Thats the whole reason Dr Ashby used real live animals over 20 years of testing to gain the conclusions. What foam targets produce, was found to be vastly different then live animal situations. Many test in foam show lighter faster arrows penatrating better then heavier slower arrows out of the same bow. But again, foam designed to stop arrows by forced friction is not the same as flesh and blood on the hoof.

While on the subject of using gpp as a formula in dealing with bow weight. Its really only good for a small range of bow weights. With this formula, the heavier the bow, the heavier the arrow, and the lighter the bow the lighter the arrow. That means an 80 lb bow would, in using the popular 10 gr per pound, take an 800 gr arrow. Fine enough, but do you think its over kill on penatration for deer, and could use a lighter arrow? 10gpp is said to be for deer right?....but what about the 30 lb bow that is legal here in my State? That would make it use a 300 gr arrow. I dont think that combo is going to work for deer well at all..penatration is going to be an issue. From all we know, the heavier draw the bow, the lighter arrow and less foc it would take to fully penetrate a deer, and the lighter the bows draw, the more arrow weight and foc is needed to fully penatrate a deer. The 10gpp formula is flawed when it comes to using it across the board. That is why I choose to use the formula Dr Ashby set forth, so I know that no matter what, im going to get full penatration 100% of the time, not 75% or 90%....but 100% of the time, even with my 42lb bow.

[Shadowhntr]

In the senario above I'm assuming the same arrow with the same point or broadhead shot from both bow being shot into the same median. I think Kirk should do a test using one of his arrows for his sage shot from both the sage and the tamberlane at 20 yards and give us a full report !cm

The problem is, Johnny, that the Tamerlane is shooting carbons with 100gr field points that are ultra-light...somewhere in the area of 5.5gpi IIRC....as opposed to the Sage's much heavier cedar arrows (7.5-ish gpi?) with 125gr FP's.
To do an accurate comparison, both bows would have to shoot a comparably weighted (compensated) arrow and they should also be chrono'd as well as having a penetration test. I will look into this and see what I can figure out over the next couple of weeks?
I already know the carbons off the Tamerlane don't penetrate the foam target at Bass Pro near as much as the cedars off my Grizzly or K-mag, that much for sure. But you're right; some sort of test is in the works!
But again; how comparable is a penetration test on a foam target butt compared to a live animal (tissue) with a razor sharp broadhead?

Got more probs then that...spine is the big one. If kirk uses the tamerlane arrow for both bows, im going to say the 35lb bow will out penetrate the 55lb badlly. That arrow will loose all its energy out of the 55 being way to limber.

[Captainkirk]

OK, Jason...you are going to have to educate me. You are speaking in terms of GPP (grains per pound?) I'm assuming we are referring to pounds of draw weight? I am used to using GPI (grains per inch) of arrow length...how do the two correlate (if at all)? While somewhat familiar with Dr. Ashby's work, I'm not totally up to speed on all of it. Can you give us a one or two line summary for the sake of this thread?